Is his ultimate really that good? Or does it need a change?

Join this discussion and get a chance to win a Steelseries Dota 2 Mouse Pad! Only those who contribute the most to this topic (not leaving 1 word answers and similar) will enter our winners poll. Winner will be announced next week, when we release another episode!


(Text editor buttons are not working atm, so you won't be able to format your text, but only use normal text layout. However, you can still use BBCode if you know it, even though there are no buttons for it. It will be fixed soon!)

Treeant's ultimate is quite good if you do specific tactics.

I was thinking about Dark Seer and Treeant, being immobilized for X seconds give ds enough positioning etc.

Problem with treeant is the damage of the ulti isn't that good. 

That's why I think Treeant is good in a early-mid game push/teamfight strat. 



Problem I think is, if you put like Treeant offlane, which you should cause I don't think it fits in another lane.
He's going to get outlaned hard or even destroyed if put against a lifestealer.

There is no escape except maybe the invis that is not that great due to having to stay near trees.

His ulti has more disadvantages than advantages.
- Does not do any damage
- It's not too long
- Do not prevent attaking heroes with an Unique Attack Modifier (which are most of the ranged carries in the late game)
- Do not prevent casting spells to do damage

Advantages.
- Affect magic immune heroes, but while duration if someone gets magic immune, is dispelled.


And since Nature's Guise is not as mirana ulti, it's a weak laner, even with his healing skill that it's like a tango with some block. Being harmless at lane should be balanced with a powerful ultimate.

It would be good for this hero that his ult was changed so all units affected by overgroth, get affected for a leach seed. Something similar to Silencer's ult but without getting an aghanim. That way, it would do 300 damage per foe affected and the same healing for your team. That way it would be a good mid-teamfight skill

feanaroalcarin wrote:

His ulti has more disadvantages than advantages.
- Does not do any damage
- It's not too long
- Do not prevent attaking heroes with an Unique Attack Modifier (which are most of the ranged carries in the late game)
- Do not prevent casting spells to do damage

Advantages.
- Affect magic immune heroes, but while duration if someone gets magic immune, is dispelled.


And since Nature's Guise is not as mirana ulti, it's a weak laner, even with his healing skill that it's like a tango with some block. Being harmless at lane should be balanced with a powerful ultimate.

It would be good for this hero that his ult was changed so all units affected by overgroth, get affected for a leach seed. Something similar to Silencer's ult but without getting an aghanim. That way, it would do 300 damage per foe affected and the same healing for your team. That way it would be a good mid-teamfight skill

I agree with most of the things you say except the latter.

Miranas ulti is really strong but the cooldown is way longer than just treeants invis + mirana his invis removes everyone off the map all at once = increasing suspicion, whilst treants wont.

Adding that would just be completely OP. If you are the in the middle, you would theoreticly have a maximum heal of 225 ( magic resist ) per hero. So thats like 5x225= 1125 hp worth of hero FOR EVERY HERO. That sounds kind of op no?
I'd just say add damage, and a small slow after the duration, make it so treant his ult isn't burst damage but more like damage over time, long hold duration ( can activate spellz) with a slow etc etc

Besides his ultimate, treant is still one of the best support heroes:

- he has a heal that also blocks dmg and can heal towers
- his heal is global wich makes him the best savior of the game
- he has a ok escape mechanism in early game
- and a decent slow/heal skill (leech seed)

He is very durable hero/tank who can just jump in into fights a initiate them.
Now lets talk about ultimate. His ultimate was better in the past because it dealt dmg so it was better when it stoped enemies and did something to them. Its nice that it stops channeling spells and reveals invi heroes and it affects immune magic units but still you can cast spells so it is its biggest weakness. Im not very fond of his ultimate I think it should stop all actions (including casting spells) or at least do some dmg. Although sometimes his ulti can make a nice synergy with certain spells that require targets to stay in one place like jakiro's Macropyre or witch doctor's death ward.

In overall great tank, great support - and they should buff his ulti a bit

The only advantage of his ult to Tide's ravage is that it affects magic immune targets.

Stunning enemies is much better since snares can too easily be broken by BKB or Manta.

He has the Natures Guise as initiation spell tho, so landing a good Overgrowth should be easier than a good Ravage.

Treant Protector is hero with very unique ult in whole game.He fits in with many heroes because of hia ult.There are 2 types of heroes that are good with Treant:

1.Heroes with aoe spells(Magnus,Enigma,KOTL...):In this casehis ult is used like setup and it gives time for Magnus or Enigma to setup RP or black hole.

2."Rightclickers"(Gyro,Luna,Alchemist):In this situation his ult is used like initiation and it gives a couple of seconds for your carry to destroy enemy team.

One of the worst facts with his ult is that heroes that have UAM spell(Drow,Huskar,Viper),can attack by manualy casting spell.

His ult goes trought magic imunity and is one pd best spell to initiate so i think it is OP.His ult should be debuffed by letting enemy to attack or blink away from Overgroith.

Treant's ult is quite good combining with something like Dark Seer + Enigma.  
The Ultimate is good at the early to mid game, but it sucks when the late game comes cause it's just so useless.
Would like a buff to his ult, to be like the previous ult who did damage and a tweak that you can't do a sh*t when you are there, meaning you can't bkb out of it and it affects bkb'd units.

I feel his ult should be given some damage offer time and also that it should be buffed because it doesn't scale well late game. By late game the carry will probably have a bkb who can then evsape instantly after they are entangled. Also I feel that they should lower the cool down of the skill because it doesn't scale well late game

Not realy a newb-friendly hero here.
With Treant you need to have map awerness and know how to possition yourself.
In that regard I think his ulti is a good one.
It does no dmg but he is not a hero who needs to do much dmg. That is not what he is expected to do.
He is a awesome ganker/support/tank that has a ulti fit for that role.

Since we're focusing on the ult here, I'd digress from looking at it through the "support" perspective but instead, I'll look at how good the ult is as an initiate.

Now which heroes do we have those really nice initiates from?

Magnus, Tidehunter, Treant Protector, Enigma and Earthshaker(I know many can initiate but usually we see these guys blinking in just for the ult)

Now in comparison, which ults would really benefit your team?(I'll leave ES out on this due to his chain of stuns since the rest don't really have the chain of AoE stuns going)
Also, I'll leave this gallery link for you guys to refer on what I'm talking about https://imgur.com/a/QnWs3#0. Take note that I took this comparison with consideration that the ults are at their max level.

Let's start with AoE range. We have Tidehunter (https://imgur.com/a/QnWs3#1) with the most range followed by Treant (https://imgur.com/a/QnWs3#3) and then Magnus (https://imgur.com/a/QnWs3#5) and Enigma (https://imgur.com/a/QnWs3#7) going near to a tie since their ults pretty much cover almost the same AoE except that Enigma has a casting range of 250 and has a blackhole AoE range of 500 but well, it's almost equal.

So AoE Range: TH > TP > Enigma > Mag

You can refer on the same images for this part too.
Now for disable duration. We have Treant with the longest disable of 4.5 seconds followed by Enigma with 4 seconds almost tying again with Magnus who has 3.75 seconds and lastly, Tidehunter with 2.77 seconds.

So disable time: TP > Enigma > Mag > TH

Now let's go to whether these ults can go through BKB or any magic immunity. Everyone's ult goes trough magic immunity with the exception of Tidehunter. This leaves us with Treant, Magnus and Enigma. However, Treant's ult can be shrugged off with an activation of magic immunity after its cast so this gives us Magnus and Enigma being the only ones who can truly hold down enemies.

This doesn't stop there, we look at what can enemies do upon using these ults. Basically, nothing if it goes through successfully unless we're talking about Treant's ult which allows the opponent to cast spells as well as use items due to it being a snare and not a stun. On the contrary, his ult does reveal invisible units which is good for your team.

As for damage, it's similar to the point before this. Everyone does damage, might it be a burst damage or a channeled damage over time. Damage will be there except for Treant.

Now from looking at this, the reason why we don't see much of Treant on competitive play is that his ult is really not worth the wait. It has many flaws that lets your opponent get a free get-out-of-jail card. As mentioned by the previous posts by other members, you can see how this ult, even though helpful, can't be seen as much of a help for your team.

I'm not done yet. OP asked if the ult should be reworked. My answer to that is NO. Why so? I understand the reasoning as to why Treant's ult is this way. If you recall, it has the longest duration of disable(unless removed with magic immunity). This compensates for the lack of damage that it has. As you know, the longer you hold somebody down, the more damage your team can deal to your opponents. If you observe the heroes that I've compared, you'll notice that the shorter the disable provided is, the more damage it deals. Now having the longest disable time, it is understandable that Treant's ult does not deal damage. Then you raise the argument of why does Enigma deal more damage than Magnus. If you look at it, Enigma is the only one who channels his ult therefore it makes him vulnerable. This makes casting the ult wisely more rewarding as to having burst damage and disable while giving you freedom to do more.

Now if the ult were to be reworked, I would imagine it to have different things added and removed/adjusted. If it were to deal damage, it has to be shortened or make Treant channel it. If it were to be a full stun then it would most likely be unable to go through magic immunity. If it were to go through magic immunity and deal damage then it would be shorter as well as removable. If you follow what I'm getting here then you can pretty much imagine what are the other possibilities of adjustments as to make the ulti still fair for everyone.

To conclude, I personally think that his ult is a good set-up even though it has a lot of counters to it. If used at the right time, your team can pretty much do a really good wombo combo of ultimates just like what others said. A bombardment of AoEs perhaps? Or a good team cleanup with cleave and such? I'll leave it to you to decide but as for me since I'm not into the competitive scene then I find Treant a very good hero.

Hope I shed some light into the discussion about Treant Protector's ultimate.

SinX wrote:

OP asked if the ult should be reworked. My answer to that is NO. Why so? I understand the reasoning as to why Treant's ult is this way. If you recall, it has the longest duration of disable(unless removed with magic immunity). This compensates for the lack of damage that it has. As you know, the longer you hold somebody down, the more damage your team can deal to your opponents. If you observe the heroes that I've compared, you'll notice that the shorter the disable provided is, the more damage it deals. Now having the longest disable time, it is understandable that Treant's ult does not deal damage. Then you raise the argument of why does Enigma deal more damage than Magnus. If you look at it, Enigma is the only one who channels his ult therefore it makes him vulnerable. This makes casting the ult wisely more rewarding as to having burst damage and disable while giving you freedom to do more.

Now if the ult were to be reworked, I would imagine it to have different things added and removed/adjusted. If it were to deal damage, it has to be shortened or make Treant channel it. If it were to be a full stun then it would most likely be unable to go through magic immunity. If it were to go through magic immunity and deal damage then it would be shorter as well as removable. If you follow what I'm getting here then you can pretty much imagine what are the other possibilities of adjustments as to make the ulti still fair for everyone.

Exactly. This hero is as good as you play him.
If you want a i-press-ult-and-win-the-game hero this is not him.
To play a good Treant you need to play good and coordinate with your team more than with most other AoE disable heroes, since even if you get the whole team and they don't have magic immunity you will achieve nothing.
His ulti is good and needs no change in my opinion

Giving my opinion on this subject,

Firstly, TP's ultimate is able to stop enemies from moving or even blinking(Other than Phantom Strike by Phantom Assasin). This would be vitally worse for heroes like Alchemist and even Lifestealer(Naix) (or even Terrorblade, since it stops Metamorphosis) because of the fact that they have a melee attack range, also Overgrow goes through Naix's rage. I mentioned the presence of Alchemist and Naix due to the fact that these carries are quite commonly picked in the professional tournaments.

Secondly, TP's ultimate would be for naught if enemy heroes were to activate BKB right after he uses Overgrow. This would be detrimental for TP's allies as most heroes who carry BKBs are in fact carries. With that BKB popped after TP's Overgrow, that team would be thrown in Chaos as the enemy carry would be busy dealing uninterrupted damage.

In conclusion, TP's overgrow may not be a perfectly good ultimate when used as a stand alone. However, when used  in synergy with other hero ultimates like Enigma's or even Magnus. It can pack a punch to the enemy team due to its large radius to set up. Overgrow can be coupled with other TP's skills( Just like any other hero with their own skill synergies) to make TP a holistic support.

To be reworked?
If it was to be reworked, I would introduce an Aghanim Scepter upgrade for it. With that, the new Overgrow would enable trapped enemy heroes to be "dragged by the roots of Overgrow" towards TP himself. This would allow easier set up for the various AOE ultimates and even with skills like Witch Doctor's Death Ward or even Alchemist's Unstable Concoction.

Paradox wrote:

feanaroalcarin wrote:

His ulti has more disadvantages than advantages.
- Does not do any damage
- It's not too long
- Do not prevent attaking heroes with an Unique Attack Modifier (which are most of the ranged carries in the late game)
- Do not prevent casting spells to do damage

Advantages.
- Affect magic immune heroes, but while duration if someone gets magic immune, is dispelled.


And since Nature's Guise is not as mirana ulti, it's a weak laner, even with his healing skill that it's like a tango with some block. Being harmless at lane should be balanced with a powerful ultimate.

It would be good for this hero that his ult was changed so all units affected by overgroth, get affected for a leach seed. Something similar to Silencer's ult but without getting an aghanim. That way, it would do 300 damage per foe affected and the same healing for your team. That way it would be a good mid-teamfight skill

I agree with most of the things you say except the latter.

Miranas ulti is really strong but the cooldown is way longer than just treeants invis + mirana his invis removes everyone off the map all at once = increasing suspicion, whilst treants wont.

Adding that would just be completely OP. If you are the in the middle, you would theoreticly have a maximum heal of 225 ( magic resist ) per hero. So thats like 5x225= 1125 hp worth of hero FOR EVERY HERO. That sounds kind of op no?
I'd just say add damage, and a small slow after the duration, make it so treant his ult isn't burst damage but more like damage over time, long hold duration ( can activate spellz) with a slow etc etc

I tried to say that it should be like a mirana ult but only on the one you cast it. And of course, with an increased cooldown so that can only affect 1 hero at once.

I didn't think about that burst heal, but for sure it can be balanced so its no so OP.

Kalsiidon wrote:

Giving my opinion on this subject,
Secondly, TP's ultimate would be for naught if enemy heroes were to activate BKB right after he uses Overgrow. This would be detrimental for TP's allies as most heroes who carry BKBs are in fact carries. With that BKB popped after TP's Overgrow, that team would be thrown in Chaos as the enemy carry would be busy dealing uninterrupted damage.

The problem about the ult is that it's kinda of pointless when it comes to really late game especially towards opposing carries. Another thing would be when your team is placed in a situation where the enemy carry is just really too fat that they just 3~4 hit your allies. Plus adding the magic immunity there, they are pretty much immune to the Seed hence, no heal for everyone. The major down side of this ult is really on to how it's just like another normal skill when it comes to going against fed carries or late game. Unlike blackhole or reverse polarity, this skill doesn't really meet the necessary 'stun' effect which is pretty much the goal of fully disabling that particular enemy hero.

Kalsiidon wrote:

To be reworked?
If it was to be reworked, I would introduce an Aghanim Scepter upgrade for it. With that, the new Overgrow would enable trapped enemy heroes to be "dragged by the roots of Overgrow" towards TP himself. This would allow easier set up for the various AOE ultimates and even with skills like Witch Doctor's Death Ward or even Alchemist's Unstable Concoction.

I like your idea here but wouldn't that make him a Magnus copy? Then again, you did say it's kept as ensnare so it can still be shrugged off with a BKB or a rage pop.

I have another one where by scepter just provides the damage or maybe scepter would prevent heroes from immunizing themselves but still no damage.

There are a few things I would like to mention reffering to this hero. Rooftrellen is basicly an allrounder with many opportunities to handle difficult situations. Slow, 2x heals ( one can even heal buildings which is very unique and powerfull), invisibility, slow, etc. he really has a nice variety of skills and effects. Removing the damage aspect of Treants ultimate was a logical step since this underlines the real purpose of this skill which is to initiate teamfights and set up other skills. The damage aspect was just an unnecessary added effect. This change made it clearer for players how and when to use this skill which obviously shouldnt be casted to deal some extra damage. Since he has so many effects in his other skills, he still has a lot to offer. His high base damage and the damage of leech seed are basicly enough for a support of his category. People need to understand the hero as a whole, before Treants winrate can grow again! Back then, in Dota 1, people often rushed radiance on him to make him a damage machine, which obviously isnt his role. His playstyle now is much more complex and it requires good coordination when and how to use his skills and mana.

SinX wrote:

Kalsiidon wrote:

Giving my opinion on this subject,
Secondly, TP's ultimate would be for naught if enemy heroes were to activate BKB right after he uses Overgrow. This would be detrimental for TP's allies as most heroes who carry BKBs are in fact carries. With that BKB popped after TP's Overgrow, that team would be thrown in Chaos as the enemy carry would be busy dealing uninterrupted damage.

The problem about the ult is that it's kinda of pointless when it comes to really late game especially towards opposing carries. Another thing would be when your team is placed in a situation where the enemy carry is just really too fat that they just 3~4 hit your allies. Plus adding the magic immunity there, they are pretty much immune to the Seed hence, no heal for everyone. The major down side of this ult is really on to how it's just like another normal skill when it comes to going against fed carries or late game. Unlike blackhole or reverse polarity, this skill doesn't really meet the necessary 'stun' effect which is pretty much the goal of fully disabling that particular enemy hero.

Kalsiidon wrote:

To be reworked?
If it was to be reworked, I would introduce an Aghanim Scepter upgrade for it. With that, the new Overgrow would enable trapped enemy heroes to be "dragged by the roots of Overgrow" towards TP himself. This would allow easier set up for the various AOE ultimates and even with skills like Witch Doctor's Death Ward or even Alchemist's Unstable Concoction.

I like your idea here but wouldn't that make him a Magnus copy? Then again, you did say it's kept as ensnare so it can still be shrugged off with a BKB or a rage pop.

I have another one where by scepter just provides the damage or maybe scepter would prevent heroes from immunizing themselves but still no damage.

The dragging is actually quite a good suggestion, I would say though it does it by default.
Otherwise the aghanims isn't really worth getting I think.

Aghanims should just increase dragg speed and maybe radius

In terms of just the ult i have to agree its pretty weak, it has no damage and cast time is pretty long.
However this hero should not be judged just by the ult. His global presence in laning phase makes him one of best lane supports (as we've seen in multiple west qualifier matches). On top of that
-he has ridiculous starting damage 
-stat growth makes him tanky for free
-he is a pretty effective ganker
and heals towers (!)
all of those are qualities lacked by most other lane supports.
If u add in the fact that he can effectively initiate with his (yes weak) ult at all, and counters poped bkbs thats really huge in comparison to other supports.
I'd say this hero lacks nothing, he is already a very hot pick hero. a very well designed one i have to add, as it fits in the game just fine providing very interesting gameplay and picks composition.

All that considered i think there is no chance for him to get any static improvement to ult in future patches.
Only acceptable thing would be adding aghanims for him, also not very potent one maybe 1.5 sec more and increased range. I wouldn't give him strong aghanim since it would be pretty natural for such tanky hero to develop into it even with weak ult bonus

valesh wrote:

In terms of just the ult i have to agree its pretty weak, it has no damage and cast time is pretty long.

What do you mean by having a long cast time? It's almost instant unless you're talking about the 0.2~0.3 frame that he does before the roots appear. Tbh, I find it to be faster than the RP casting.

I feel uncomfortable talking about the only bad skill this hero have (and not even that bad...) But, hey, im feeling icefrog today so, here is the next patch for him!

Overgrowth

Target: N/A

Affects: Enemies

Can be purged/Cant be blocked by magic inmunity either linkens

Radius: 1250

Duration of entangled: 2/ 2.5/ 3

Duration of spread: 10/12/15

Summons an overgrowth of vines and branches around Treant, spreading around him at speed of 300 units per secs. All enemies in this AOE are entangled (prevent afflicted enemies from moving, blinking, going invisible, or attacking.) and leave roots overwhere, decreasing atackspeed and movespeed both for 20% while they are on the AOE.

Also, everytime you use it, all your towers heals, roshan dies and the aegis is dropped in your base.

Aghanim's Scepter : Now, with the aegis, you also win a roshan, a rapier, and all your team gets lvl 25. Cheats are activated, and at the end of the game, 2 tickets to see the international (IN THE NAME OF DENDI, PUPPEY AND SING SING, AMEN).

IT IS NOT IRONY.
NOT AT ALL.
IT IS NOT.
IRONY.

SinX wrote:

valesh wrote:

In terms of just the ult i have to agree its pretty weak, it has no damage and cast time is pretty long.

What do you mean by having a long cast time? It's almost instant unless you're talking about the 0.2~0.3 frame that he does before the roots appear. Tbh, I find it to be faster than the RP casting.

I did manage to hex a tree blinking in to ult a couple of times. I never seen it with magnus though.
But guess that might be just luck or lack of shift click on side of the tree. I've never looked into numbers on that cast time, guess thats my bad

valesh wrote:

SinX wrote:

valesh wrote:

In terms of just the ult i have to agree its pretty weak, it has no damage and cast time is pretty long.

What do you mean by having a long cast time? It's almost instant unless you're talking about the 0.2~0.3 frame that he does before the roots appear. Tbh, I find it to be faster than the RP casting.

I did manage to hex a tree blinking in to ult a couple of times. I never seen it with magnus though.
But guess that might be just luck or lack of shift click on side of the tree. I've never looked into numbers on that cast time, guess thats my bad

Well, Magnus is very easy to counter when he blinks. He has a delay of more or less 0.6 secs. With some reaction time, every rubick should stop him.

Swadow wrote:

valesh wrote:

SinX wrote:

valesh wrote:

In terms of just the ult i have to agree its pretty weak, it has no damage and cast time is pretty long.

What do you mean by having a long cast time? It's almost instant unless you're talking about the 0.2~0.3 frame that he does before the roots appear. Tbh, I find it to be faster than the RP casting.

I did manage to hex a tree blinking in to ult a couple of times. I never seen it with magnus though.
But guess that might be just luck or lack of shift click on side of the tree. I've never looked into numbers on that cast time, guess thats my bad

Well, Magnus is very easy to counter when he blinks. He has a delay of more or less 0.6 secs. With some reaction time, every rubick should stop him.

Or let him actually use RP while Rubick stays behind to steal it and use it to bite its butt back.
I would say that valesh probably has quick fingers if you can do that or just the Treant really doesn't do the shift clicking at all.

Trent Protectors ultimate needs to be a little buffed, meaning that his ultimate after the stun duration gives slow and reduces the physical reduction of the Hero. And that he has Aghanim Scepter upgrate, that lowers the cooldown of the ultimate and increases the duration by 1sec. Also when he has Aghanim's Scepter allied units that are near Overgrowth will get "Living Armor" based on its current level.

His ultimate is not so good in DotA2 maybe Valve didnt pay a lot of attention in details yet but in current state his ultimate has less damage and its use is only to paralyze the enemies rather damage them over time which is not so good if we compare them with magnus or enigma ultimates and make the whole character less reliable in team fights than he was.I think Valve has to fix his ultimate and put some damage